High water pressure but low flow?

[quinnow1]

Hi all...first off I would like to say I am glad I found this forum. it is filled with great information it would take me hours to read over.

I own a house built in 1972. All copper lines in the house and we never had a problem ( that I knew of) for water pressure and or flow. About 4 years ago we had a plumber come in and he replaced the water pressure regulator because we had wicked water hammer whenever a faucet or washer was turned off. that cured the problem but the water flow right after installation was kinda low so he cranked it up.

Now I have replaced the water heater because old one is 19 years old and I want to be on the safe side if ever not home for a while. me and a friend checked my water pressure using two diff gauges and both read 105PSI. I thought this was extremely high so I also checked two houses around me...one directly next door and the other across the street, both had same reading at 105PSI. I am sure I do not have any pipe restrictions because many places we cut the pipes they were all spotless inside and besides we have great flow at the high pressure to the point it would knock you over. but when the pressure is reduced the flow sucks bad and upstairs it barely comes out. The regulator that was replaced was a "Watts" 25-75PSI regulator. if the Max range is 75PSI why am I getting 105PSI reading on my gauges? Do I have a bad regulator? I do not hear any pipe knocking ( water hammer) and right now at 105PSI I have great flow but I am worried about damage to the plumbing. Any ideas or help? Thanks.

 

[journeyman]

Check the pressure at the back of the house. Hose bibs at front of house are probably piped in before the pressure regulator which is going to give you a city reading. Always check pressure at back of house

 

[quinnow1]

I just checked and still around 105PSI as well as at the laundry tub,

 

[Mr_David]

Is it a double union Regulator make sure the flow is in the right direction.
It's easy to put one in backwards. But you'll only do it once ; ).

 

[journeyman]

Try a new gauge and see what your readings are. Something is not right if all three houses are at 105psi. Either all of your regs are bad,you have a bad gauge, or your not checking at back bib. My experience is if a reg is installed backwards you will get hardly any water or a whistle noise in reg.

 

[quinnow1]

ok...turned out to be a bad regulator...called Roto-Rooter in my area and they send a guy out. he walks in says yup it sounds like a bad regulator and would have to install a new one. tells me 560.00 plus tax. I declined the work after a short chuckle because he is telling me it costs so much before the one I need is 'lead free'. I marched over to Home depot and bought a Watts 1/2" for 72.00. Came home and took all of ten minutes for me to swap out. My flow is better than before and pressure is at 62PSI. I then went on Roto-rooters website and left a very bad feedback. I know it costs money for fuel and labor but this guy was gonna try to hit me for close to 500.00 labor for a ten minute job.

 

[plbgbiz]

What you can do with non-compliant materials from the box store is far different than what a licensed plumbing professional is allowed to do. There are many examples of illegal plumbing products sold at Lowe's, Home Depot, and other hardware stores. It is possible that the product you purchased is not compliant with the new lead standards. By installing a non-compliant product in your system you may or may not put yourself or others at risk. But if the licensed Plumber installs it, he is risking losing his license and livelihood.

The real issue though seems to be the proposed cost of hiring this work to be done for you. The $560 charge from Roto-Rooter was not for 10 minutes of wrench turning although that is part of it. I wonder if they helped with the diagnosis or sent someone to your house to look at the job. If so, was that supposed to be free?

You spent much longer than 10 minutes diagnosing the problem, verifying the right item to purchase, getting the materials, getting back to the house, getting the right tools, changing the regulator, verifying the results with a gauge, putting away your tools and then reporting back on your success.

You also are hedging on your math. $560 minus $72 does not equal $500 in labor. I get the sense that you think the lion share of that ends up in the Plumber's pocket. Like most consumers, you are completely unaware of how much money in overhead is needed to get a plumbing service truck and a licensed professional Plumber delivered to your doorstep. Don't be insulted, most Plumbers don't know either.

It always baffles me when consumers try to equate their free time to hiring a licensed professional trying to earn a living. $560 is a very fair proposal for professional service that they would have to guarantee. And in return you publicly here and on their own site gave them a bad review for offering a fair price for professional service. All just because you can work for free cheaper than they can pay a pro to do it for you.

Nice job Q.

 

[quinnow1]

I based my comments on the fact that my original part was installed by a licensed plumber thus must have been up to code. At that time the plumber charged me a grand total of 190.00 which included the part and installation. Part number was LF25AUB Z3 and is the exact same part number I purchased myself.
Sadly the plumber that did my first install has since retired. When I called Rooter I asked for a "Rough" estimate over the phone what it would cost to replace a Regulator because I was quite certain this was my issue. I was told they do not give estimates over the phone and would have to send someone out but that the on site estimate would be free. ( Nothing in this world is free) he barely made it into my front door and looked at the regulator without even placing a hand on it and confirmed based on what I told him that it was pretty much what I needed. So other than driving here and confirming what I had asked for over the phone he had done nothing except walked mud and dirt across my floor. And even if you add my 30 minutes to pick up and return with my part and my tool cleanup etc there is still no way to justify the 'close to" 500.00 extra dollars I would have spent plus tax just to have him do it. I would also like to mention the part he intended on using was also a Watts. I own a towing business and we tow anything from cars right on up to Tractor trailers. My large truck is a 45 ton wrecker that cost me over 250000.00. When I take that out and tow a tractor trailer loaded 75 miles for repairs my charges would still be less than what this guy tried to charge me for a regulator. Cant tell me his small van and his time has a far greater expense related to it than my business. I know what it costs to operate based on fuel, insurance, labor, prevent maint etc. Why could one plumber come here and install one for 190.00 yet the other was several hundred over? if he would have priced around 250.00 maybe even 300.00 then everyone is happy, but do not rape me. Based on other feedbacks he was given I am not the only one that feels this way. BTW I was rounding on the calculation...but was I supposed to feel that much better if the amount was 488.00 instead of rounding to 500?

 

[plbgbiz]

I won't bother pointing all the errors in your reasoning. It would fall on deaf ears anyway. Like I said, nice job.

 

[quinnow1]

I won't bother pointing all the errors in your reasoning. It would fall on deaf ears anyway. Like I said, nice job.

LOL... oh please do. I would love to hear your logic on how it is okay to outright lie to a customer how my bad regulator contained lead and how this plumber was doing me a justice. Both lead free!

Or perhaps you can explain or justify the 488? lets say he marks the part up to 150.00 or even 200.00 for a 120% mark-up.. that would leave 360.00 in labor. I would love to be able to charge my customers 360.00 in labor for an hours work ( and took me less than 10 minutes ) Not gonna go far in business by robbing people.

You being a plumber I will assume at times have to have your car worked on. lets say you took it to a garage to have your battery changed, and I sell you a battery that cost me 60.00 but marked it up to 120.00 then slapped you with an install bill of 450.00. Are you gonna think I am robbing you and or taking advantage of your lack of mechanical knowledge, or perhaps you will decline and buy one yourself and do it on your own? I highly doubt you would have that " He has to make a living too" logic

 

[havasu]

On this debate, I have to side with Quin. All of us are experts in one field or another, but that labor charge does seem outrageous.

I also have a friend who works for "the Big Rooter" company. I never call his office, but will call his cell phone. On his way home, he will fix my clog. I pay him rather than his company because he has a small child with cancer and needs the money.

 

[plbgbiz]

Mr. Quin, the fact that you are talking about material markup percentages and the all mighty "labor" term proves that you don't understand budgeting and overhead costs in a plumbing service business. Changing batteries and driving a tow-truck are not apples to apples comparisons to a plumbing service business operating with multiple employees with benefits and trade licensing requirements.

I said it was "possible" that the product you purchased was non-compliant, not definite. Then I focused on your peeve, the price. Fair pricing is not always about low pricing. In fact, it is very rare to find the real fair price to be the low price.

It is regrettable for you and Roto-Rooter that your experience was poor. Personally I have doubts about the service related issues you brought up because they only mattered after you were called out on your price beef. You just sound like you're trying add false weight to a weak stance. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Here's the bottom line. All Roto-Rooter did was offer you diagnostic service that cost them money and you took advantage of. Then you refused their offer because you thought you could do better elsewhere. Fine by me. That's the free market at work. The thing is, Roto-Rooter has a damaged reputation now because you wanted to spout off. They did not do anything wrong. They said they would come to your house and give you a price for free. They did exactly what they promised. And for that you made a permanent and public rebuke of them when they never actually did any work for you and you didn't pay them a dime. How would you feel if every person that decided not to use your services flamed you on the interwebz?

As far as the dollar amount is concerned, I don't remember the last time I installed a PRV for less than $500 and this is for repeat customers that know they received a fair price. Other companies in my area may charge less. That's fine. They obviously know what their work is worth.

 

[journeyman]

Maybe the price was not for a 70 series reg but a 600 series reg with the extra strainer. If that is the case then there is more involved then turning a wrench. I only install 600 series regs. They last longer and might be ehy yours went out in 4 yrs and charged you 190 dollars. Ehen you go buy a gallon of milk do you pay the 4 dollars or argue about it. Why is my profession any different. You ask for skilled tradesman and professional. That will cost. There is always room to adjust prices but society expects it for some reason. As far as your tow truck buisness your burning diesel, the truck is probably paid for 10 times over and you are not suppling anything but a cable. You should have never wasted that plumbers time by having him come out if you already knew you could do it cheaper. His time is just as valuble as yours. Gaurantee if you have an emergency in the middle of the night you will want him there because home depot closes at 9. Good luck and good job i guess

 

[quinnow1]

Mr. Quin, the fact that you are talking about material markup percentages and the all mighty "labor" term proves that you don't understand budgeting and overhead costs in a plumbing service business. Changing batteries and driving a tow-truck are not apples to apples comparisons to a plumbing service business operating with multiple employees with benefits and trade licensing requirements.
.

did you not see that I own a company? I have 12 trucks and a nine bay service center. I have to carry a six million dollar insurance policy, I also have labor costs and my fuel for the fleet each week exceeds 6000.00 Property tax and truck payments to boot. I have a total of 23 employees. You are going to preach to me that I can't compare my cost of operation to those of a plumber and his cost of operation? I have DOT inspections and CDL licenses to also worry about. I still do not take those factors into account when I charge my customers. I can make a profit without trying to make a weeks profit off one guy. I also will give estimates over phone as well as on site for free. My fuel my time.

 

[quinnow1]

Maybe the price was not for a 70 series reg but a 600 series reg with the extra strainer. If that is the case then there is more involved then turning a wrench. I only install 600 series regs. They last longer and might be ehy yours went out in 4 yrs and charged you 190 dollars. Ehen you go buy a gallon of milk do you pay the 4 dollars or argue about it. Why is my profession any different. You ask for skilled tradesman and professional. That will cost. There is always room to adjust prices but society expects it for some reason. As far as your tow truck buisness your burning diesel, the truck is probably paid for 10 times over and you are not suppling anything but a cable. You should have never wasted that plumbers time by having him come out if you already knew you could do it cheaper. His time is just as valuble as yours. Gaurantee if you have an emergency in the middle of the night you will want him there because home depot closes at 9. Good luck and good job i guess

LOL my trucks are never paid for ten times over. I am located in NY where salt eats everything. My cheapest truck is a 2013 Ram 5500 4x4 with a twin line. It cost me 87000.00. We are constantly placing tires on the fleet, fuel, broken hydraulic lines, chains, maint etc. Like any business there are costs of keeping things going. The shop has to be heated and lights have to be kept on.

As far as wasting his time I do believe I mentioned that I requested a rough estimate over the phone and was refused one. If they had told me based on what I was looking for that it would cost me 560.00 I would have simply said no thank you and moved on. OR if when he arrived to give me my estimate and it was within 100.00 of the last plumbers install I also may have said yes. BUT when you are 370.00 above the last guy that threw up a flag. In my opinion it made me feel like I was being cornered wheras many people would have simply said okay do the work not knowing better. If anything it was HE that wasted my time having to wait for him to show.

BTW I do not argue about a 4.00 Gal of milk... but if I see one for 50.00 I might have something to say. try all you like to justify those outrageous costs, but I am sure that at some point you were ticked off about the cost of something you paid for. wasn't like he was trying to over charge me around 100.00

 

[journeyman]

I am going to talk to a gallon of milk instead. Next time you need a plumber call home depot sure they will come out at 2 in the morning let me know how that works for you. Not only did you waste the plumbers time you wasted the time of the plumbers on this site. Were you expecting a pat on the back because you can check your pressure. Or did you know the problem and then get on this page to waste more peoples time. And if milk was 50 dollars a gallon you would still buy it because you have no other choice unless you are going to close shop to milk cows.

 

[quinnow1]

I am going to talk to a gallon of milk instead. Next time you need a plumber call home depot sure they will come out at 2 in the morning let me know how that works for you. Not only did you waste the plumbers time you wasted the time of the plumbers on this site. Were you expecting a pat on the back because you can check your pressure. Or did you know the problem and then get on this page to waste more peoples time. And if milk was 50 dollars a gallon you would still buy it because you have no other choice unless you are going to close shop to milk cows.

I hope you are a much better plumber than you are a consumer, because by your comments not only are you meaning them to be insulting but you are also clueless and walk with blinders on. You respond only in a fashion to crib up your logic and points. And to justify my cost comments I have called 3 other companies to see if that price was within reason. two thought it was crazy and one simply told me that Rooter has been known for doing that in my area and would not comment further.

But I can see that by you justifying his billing practices that you also must take advantage of your clients. BTW ...Gatti plumbing in my area also laughed at that price and offered to do it parts and labor for 230.00. If I had known this before depot I would have scooped that offer...So I am not worried about depot being closed...same price no matter what hour. Enjoy your milk.

 

[Mr_David]

Maybe the price was not for a 70 series reg but a 600 series reg with the extra strainer.

70 and 600 series are Wilkens , Not Watts

 

[journeyman]

I know the differnce between watts and wilkens. Wilkens turns to plastic once you get to 1 inchnregs or bigger that why i only use watts. Wilkens look cheap with plastic. Watts is a better reg and is full brass

 

[plbgbiz]

...I have 12 trucks and a nine bay service center. I have to carry a six million dollar insurance policy, I also have labor costs and my fuel for the fleet each week exceeds 6000.00 Property tax and truck payments to boot. I have a total of 23 employees....I have DOT inspections and CDL licenses to also worry about...

And then you said...

...I still do not take those factors into account when I charge my customers....

And then....I chuckled. You have have the business credibility of a 9 year old playing Monopoly.

Time spent calling Plumbers for free estimates - Free
Time spent getting a free estimate - Free
Time spent getting free advice from Plumbers in the internet - Free
Time spent getting the widget - Free
Time spent putting in the widget - Free
Time spent cleaning up - Free
Time spent bragging on your success - Free
Widget - $70

Giving bad reviews to a company that gave you a free estimate and that you didn't even hire - PRICELESS!

I will bore you no longer. Feel free to have the last word Mr. Q.