Considering a water softener

[newton4mark]

I am new to this forum
We just purchased a home in AZ
The water is some of the hardest in the country

We do have a softner loop in the garage

And I have been getting solicitors, coming by trying to sell me a system

What are the recommended systems and how much should I spend to treat the water for bathing, wash, drinking and cooking?

Are there good saltless options

Seems like a lot of mis information out there?? Everyone has a gimmick or something to sell

I think I would rather buy a unit and have a local plumber install it

These company's are pretty high priced

Any thoughts

 

[speedbump]

Water softener salesmen are all over the place. Kind of like used car salesmen. There are all kinds of prices out there. The higher price the more the salesman makes. You should be looking in the vicinity of $1200 to $1500 installed for a good system. Brand names always bring higher prices. This is not to say they are any better, they just spend more on advertising. There are only two control heads I would use. Fleck and Klack. That's it. No Culligan, or Kinetico etc. They are just over priced. Look for a local softener guy that doesn't come to your home in the evening and try to scare the hell out of your wife with his test kit.

There are no salt free systems that work. The only way to go salt free is to use potassium chloride instead of sodium chloride and the sodium is cheaper and works better. It's just that using potassium chloride makes it legal to say salt free. Just another gimmick!

 

[newton4mark]

Thanks for the advice

I assume that means we
would need an RO system for drinking and ice?

 

[speedbump]

I personally don't like RO for drinking or ice. It removes everything from the water and makes it very acidic. If you have city water, the chlorine, ammonia and fluoride are the only things I would want to remove. With a well, 95% of them are safe to drink from.

 

[newton4mark]

We are on city
What do you recommend to remove the salt for drinking

 

[speedbump]

Nothing, there is almost no salt in the water. I have heard it said that a slice of bread has more salt than a glass of soft water. Even if you have a very bad ticker, the water is safe to drink from a softener.

 

[newton4mark]

Wow
Those sales guys
Make it sound like it will kill you if you don't get an RO system

They just want to sell more stuff

Thanks for the thoughts

 

[KULTULZ]

Wow

Those sales guys

Make it sound like it will kill you if you don't get an RO system

They just want to sell more stuff

Thanks for the thoughts

Take it with a grain of salt (pun intended). There are those on low salt diets, dialysis and other factors where an RO is beneficial. You would only RO water intended for drinking/cooking/medical purposes (or refrigerator ice maker). The actual kitchen sink would still use softened water.

-Drinking Softened Water: How Much Sodium in Softened Water?-

-Potassium For A Water Softener-

A water softener has to be spec'd according to the water's calcium and manganese amounts (determined by a complete water analysis) home size and number of occupants. You then size and price from there. It is not plug and play.

If you need to remove other contaminants (i.e. chlorine - chloramines - fluoride - iron - H2S - turbidity -arsenic - others) without other filtering methods, you have to change the resin formula.

A SALT-BASED SOFTENER also removes mineral nutrients as does an RO SYSTEM.

A SALT-LESS WATER CONDITIONER has it's uses, but not with severe hard water.

 

[speedbump]

I don't know where Kultutz is googling, but I have never heard of separating the calcium and magnesium into their exact quantities, nor have I heard of changing the resin's formula. Yes there are companies who mix up their media's to try and do more than one thing. Like putting some carbon in the softener tank to remove chlorine. It's a great idea until the carbon depletes then you have to dump all the media to replace just the carbon.

 

[KULTULZ]

I don't know where Kultutz is googling, but I have never heard of separating the calcium and magnesium into their exact quantities, nor have I heard of changing the resin's formula.

Let me try it this way. You have to know what the level(s) are of manganese and calcium (among others) to size the media bed properly. It is called money savings.

Yes there are companies who mix up their media's to try and do more than one thing. Like putting some carbon in the softener tank to remove chlorine. It's a great idea until the carbon depletes then you have to dump all the media to replace just the carbon.

Exactly. How many times have you read where I have said a softener is an ion ex-changer, not a filter. It (media manipulation) can be done but it is going to damage the media more quickly and most likely use more salt along with more frequent flushing ($$$). The impurities need to be filtered out before reaching the softener.

You know, those pesky whole house filters you abhor so much...

 

[newton4mark]

So I am guessing it is best to get a softner without the extra media manipulation
My fridge has a carbon filter on it so that should remove the chlorine

And we are good?

 

[KULTULZ]

So I am guessing it is best to get a softner without the extra media manipulation

My fridge has a carbon filter on it so that should remove the chlorine

And we are good?

Are you on municipal or well water?

 

[newton4mark]

We are ... and it is horrible
Very hard and has an odor of chlorine

 

[speedbump]

I would call your municipal water supplier and ask them what they use for disinfection and if they add fluoride. Here (not my water) the county water has chlorimines. This means chlorine, ammonia and fluoride are in the water. A bag of Centaur will remove those three quite well. It can be put into a softener sized tank with a simple in and out head. I'm rebedding one for a friend Saturday morning. His was installed about three years ago and the Centaur is all used up and isn't removing the chlorimine anymore. This is for a whole house. Not like the 10" filters the big box stores call "Whole House Filters".

 

[KULTULZ]

We are ... and it is horrible
Very hard and has an odor of chlorine

I am a$$-u-me(ing) you are on municipal water...

speedbump has it. Chlorine does not do the job on today's nasty water sources so they have added chloramines, which contains ammonia and is nasty stuff. It can be stopped at the home POE (point of entry) as speedbump suggested.

Now, with that being said, if the treatment(s) are removed at POE, the water distribution system in the home may become contaminated. The solution here is to use POU (point of use) filters at the kitchen sink and baths (laundry if it is really bad).

I mention this not to scare you but to educate you to make a more informed decision. Your water has to be analyzed for you to know exactly what is in it (and to properly size any filtration/water softener). You cannot depend on the water treatment plant as the water that leaves the plant will be much cleaner than what reaches your home.

The chlorine/chloramines must be removed before entering a softener.

 

[newton4mark]

Gotcha thanks for all the help

 

[KULTULZ]

I hope I helped rather than confused...

It seems the EPA would issue a booklet describing guidelines. A salesman not all) can offer dis-information for a quick sale and the buyer is stuck and has to start all over again.

 

[newton4mark]

I am a little confused

I need something
That can soften the water and remove the chloramines

With out paying outrageous amounts of money

These salesman are pretty high in AZ as they know how bad the water is here and want to scare my wife into thinking we are doomed without their gizmos

Which may or may not be the solution we require

 

[KULTULZ]

I am a little confused

I need something
That can soften the water and remove the chloramines

With out paying outrageous amounts of money

These salesman are pretty high in AZ as they know how bad the water is here and want to scare my wife into thinking we are doomed without their gizmos

Which may or may not be the solution we require

There is only one way to deal with the problem-

A sediment/charcoal (with chloramine removal resin) (properly sized) and a salt based water softener (properly sized) is the only basic way out. It is not cheap.

You need to GOOGLE water treatment sites (minimum three) to get further information and costs. Be sure the company and salesman are NSF Certified at a minimum.

 

[KULTULZ]

With a well, 95% of them are safe to drink from.

IRON EYES CODY

...developed jaundice drinking supposedly clean well water. His eyes yellowed and rust stains marked his cheeks...

Just rattling your cage...

-About Private Water Wells- EPA-

ADDENDUM-

Maybe this will help understanding water purification-

-HOME WATER FILTRATION FACTS - EPA-