Check valve required for hot water recirculation?

[jeralmac]

Hello community.....

I'm a DIYer that recently installed a Watts #500800 hot water recirc pump with remote fixture check valve. Overall, we were happy with the results, even though the water is really only luke warm (we wanted to do a proper install without the remote check valve but putting in a pex return line isn't an option without tearing up drywall).

After a few weeks of using the new pump, we noticed that we were starting to get hard water staining on our fixtures/tubs/shower etc. We have a Fleck 5600sxt water softener that I installed about 8 years ago that has performed flawlessly until recently. I became suspicious due to the timing of when I installed the recirc pump that it was negatively impacting the softener which when I think about it, make sense as the pump was likely creating back pressure on the water softener.

My question is this: it seems that I need a check valve and based on my research, a spring loaded check valve would be the best solution. However, I've read that spring loaded check valves can take a hit on your overall pressure, which I don't want to sacrifice. Is a spring check valve the best option and if I go up in size to let's say a 1.5" with reducers, will that minimize the pressure impact? Also, can I assume it's best to be installed just after the water softener? Our incoming line is 1" from the well's pressure tank, from there it goes to 3/4 where it feeds our incoming water sediment filter and ultimately the softener and then the water heater (50 gallon tank).

Any advice is hugely appreciated!

 

[breplum]

You write that you are using "remote fixture check valve" at the farthest fixture but I think you mean remote bypass device, or comfort bypass device.
You want to add a spring check valve. Check valves do not affect pressure, but can affect flow.
Going up one size to 1" is not a bad idea to keep flow unaffected.
I do not think your hard water staining is due to the bypass but not really able to judge from my understanding of your description.

 

[jeralmac]

Thank you for your response breplum! Yes, I did mean "remote bypass device", sorry for the misrepresentation.

Would a diagram of my plumbing system help aid in troubleshooting? It would likely be hand drawn......

Outside of that, all I can say is that as soon as I added a recirc pump, we are now getting hard water to the house fixtures where we were not prior to the install.

 

[breplum]

Drawing certinly won't hurt. I have zero experience with softeners, but layout will be illuminating.

 

[jeralmac]

Basic diagram attached. Please let me know if any details are missing, happy to add.

 

[Jeff Handy]

Have you drained or flushed your water heater on a regular basis every year?

If not, your recirc pump might be stirring up sediment and minerals that have settled at the bottom, and they are showing up as mineral stains on fixtures.

 

[jeralmac]

That's a great point Jeff, I hadn't thought of that! I'll add to my list of troubleshooting steps..... Water heater is exactly 2 years old but I haven't flushed it yet.

 

[breplum]

Jeff, those fractional h.p. pumps (in my mind) don't generate that much velocity to do what we are talking about, but interesting concept.
Big J, nice drawing !(what did you use to render that?).
Hard/impossible to imagine where any un-softened water would be getting into the system based on what you've shown.
If you do add a check valve on the cold water supply side, it will create a closed hot water system and you would need to add an expansion tank just past the check valve on the cold supply. This prevents excess strain on the hot supply system and water heater during heating/expansion cycles.

Also to note, the pump induces flow but not pressure. In the closed system of the water supply, it is just moving water and not adding a static increase is p.s.i.
I go in for cataract surgery tomorrow morning, so don't be offended if I end up radio-silent tomorrow.

 

[Jeff Handy]

Flush your well tank also.
Some finer stuff might be getting through the sediment filter.

And the recirc pump might be scouring off old mineral buildup in your house piping, that would not be caught by the sediment filter, the new loop is after that.

Maybe add a new small filter on the line just before the recirc pump, or somewhere else that pros here may advise?

 

[Jeff Handy]

Sorry breplum, I posted again just moments after you.

Good luck with surgery, I know I am destined for that same stuff eventually, it runs in the family.

But afterwards, no glasses needed for driving, woohoo!

 

[Jeff Handy]

Could the recirc pump be causing more precipitation of hard well water minerals, due to the constant slight flow and aeration?
Mineral buildup always seems faster in hot water, at least in my experience.

Which would make a second small filter seem even more useful.

 

[jeralmac]

Thanks guys, really appreciate the feedback!

Good luck with your recovery breplum!! RE: the drawing - it was done in MS Paint - an oldy but goody

I think I'm going to start with a little troubleshooting of the Fleck Softener per the manual just to make sure everything is in order - I suppose it could have been coincidence that we started getting mineral deposits on fixtures just after installing recirc pump and that there's something in the softener that is malfunctioning.

I think I'll also add the check valve and pressure tank per breplum's suggestion, that makes sense to me. If after doing the above mentioned steps, I'll look in to additional filtering. I'm just not convinced at this point that it will help, simply because the system performed perfectly for at least a decade with no hard water deposits on any fixture/surface.

Regarding the check valve and pressure tank - I'm thinking of ordering a 1 1/4" check valve with appropriate reducers to match my 3/4" lines (open to suggestions).....but not sure what size/type of expansion tank to put in.... Would love a recommendation, would you need to know more about the house PSI or other aspects in order to make a tank recommendation?

 

[Jeff Handy]

Are the mineral stains white, black/grey, or red?

If red, try cleaning out the softener with IronOut once a month, even if you are using iron fighting type of salt.

Also, some softeners need the resin beads dumped and replaced after a while, in high mineral or high iron water.
They get hard coated or lose their permeability, water is only flowing through channels in the fouled resin beads, not making good contact.

You can also wait til the salt tank is fairly low, and top it off with several gallons of generic vinegar.
There are also powdered products to add to a tank of clean water, to try to rescue a fouled resin tank.

You can find vids on Youtube showing how to do all these cleaning tasks.

After any of these cleaners, run another full softener regeneration normal cycle with salt, then run at least twenty or thirty gallons of straight cold water out of the bathtub, slop sink, outside sillcock if attached to softener, any fixture with high flow and either no or loose aerator.
Otherwise, there will likely be cloudy, smelly, bad tasting, or highly stained water that will clog up tight aerators and fill the water heater with yucky water.

Bath tub spout is usually the best choice, high flow and no aerator.

You will be amazed at the junk that comes out after a cleaning cycle.

My old house on a well, even with a large sediment and charcoal filter, the first water after chemical cleaning came out purple, black, and stinky.

 

[jeralmac]

Jeff, thanks so much for the tips!! I wouldn't be surprised if tons of gunk comes out, it's been 10 years and I've never dealt with the softener whatsoever. I just ordered ResCare RK41N All-Purpose Water Softener Cleaner, we'll see how it goes!

As for the the plumbing system, I'm still looking for some advice on the size/type of spring valve and the brand/capacity of an expansion tank. A couple gallons good enough? Or are we talking larger?

 

[plumbob61]

From what I hear they have made some pretty significant advances in filtration technology in recent years. I guess there is filter systems that come very close to mimicking soft water systems without all the salt, maintenance and pain in the butt. I wish I had more info but it has been a few years since I heard about it.