Can I do it or not!

[hossett]

Hello:
I'm thinking of putting my new front load washer downstairs,however I don't know if I can, as my basement has no sump pump in it and my main house drain is horizontal at about 6ft off the basement floor (you know the old cast iron kind). So I don't know if it is possible to put the washer downstairs.
Any advise or suggestions would be of great help.

Thanks all

 

[phishfood]

The first thing to check is to see if the washing machine discharge pump is rated to lift the drain water that high.

Then, you would need a way to get a vent out for the new drain and trap that you would have to install.

 

[CHRISM]

"Hello",

I am sure that THIS POST will cause Me to receive some `Disagreements` - and in fact I MAY be `Ridiculed` about my comments - As U.S. Plumbing Attitudes are `Different` to those in the U.K.

IF I am understanding this correctly the Questioner has the Drain Run from his Homes Sanitary Ware etc. running Horizontally [With a `Fall`] within his Basement.

He is asking IF He should try to `make provision`for Plumbing in his Washing Machine - to THIS Drain Run - at approx. 6 Feet from the Floor.

Although I am sure that Millions of Americans have Plumbing & Drainage within their Basements - I personally would NOT be advising anyone to connect ANY `New` Drainage to this Drain Run - Unless `Professionally Installed` - Taking into consideration `Back Flow Protection` [Of the Basement].

Although there are Waste Water Pumps available to Pump the Water from Bathrooms - Shower Rooms - Sinks - Washing Machines etc - UP and into a connection to a `Soil Stack` [Main Waste Stack] - `Stub Stack` or `Trap` arrangement connection to the Drain Run - I would NOT want [In My Home] ANY Possibility of this `New Connection` being the `Weak Link` in the event of the Drainage `Backing Up` into the House.

The `Questioner` mentions that He does NOT have a Sump Pump - making the `Prevention of Flooding` even more IMPORTANT !

IF a Waste Water Pump is to be used - it should be capable of Pumping Vertically `High Enough` to enable the connection to be to the `Soil Stack`
- The Main `Downpipe` from `W.C.`s - Bathrooms etc. - to keep the Connection OUT of the Basement and ABOVE any `Probable` `Back Up` Level - As `Judged` by an `Experienced Plumber` or `Drainage Engineer` - OR - by `Obvious Factors` - such as for example a `W.C.` at a LOWER LEVEL than where the Waste Water Pump Pipework Connection enters the `Stack`.

These Waste Water Pumps are NOT `Vented` - and in use for JUST a Washing Machine - the `Stand Pipe` [with a Trap] arrangement would simply connect to the `Box` Housing the Pump - Then `Small Bore` Pipework runs Up from the Pump to the Connection to `Soil Pipe` or Drainage.
This `Small Bore` pipework should be Installed WITHOUT Elbow Fittings - as these `restrict` the Flow - and cause possible `Blockage Points` when used for `Other` applications - Manufacturers Instructions are Important with these Pumps.

The `Stand Pipe` having the Washing Machine Waste Water Hose simply `Hooked Into` the top of the pipe - there is an `Air Break` between the Washing Machine Pump and the `Stand Pipe` Trap - Waste Water from the Machine will simply `Flow` into the Pump Housing [`Box`] - then be Pumped Away.

It is because of the Pumped Water being completely seperate from the Waste Water entering the `Stand Pipe` that `Normal` Venting Regulations should NOT apply - Air is being `Admitted`[with the Water] from the Top of the `Stand Pipe` - The `Stand Pipe` TRAP is preventing any `Hygiene Issue` from the Waste Water Pump Connection.
The Design of these Pumps mean that they could never `Pump` or `Siphon`the Water from the `Stand Pipe` TRAP

THIS `Arrangement` Passes ALL U.K. `Hygiene Regulations` AND Drainage Regulations - When Installed Correctly - BUT - It should be `Checked` against U.S. `Codes` - I cannot imagine a reason that it would NOT be `Approved` - BUT - `Just in Case`.

There would be NO REASON to require `Venting` of the Washing Machine Waste Water Pipework - As I stated Air IS `Behind Water` at the point of the TOP of the `Stand Pipe` where the Machine Hose is `Hooked in`.

With regard to the Waste Water Pump - The `Outlet Pipework` should be connected into the `Soil & Waste Stack` at a point `Higher` than any `Back Up`/ `Flood Level` could reasonably `Reach`.

I know that there are Drainage `Non Return` `Valves` [Flap Action] that CAN be Installed to `Protect the House` - BUT - would this be `Feasible` in this case - as He has Cast Iron Drainage Pipes - ??

I am CERTAIN that because there are `Plumbing Installations` in Millions [?] of U.S. Basements - that I WILL be `DECRIED` about this - BUT as a `Retrofit` - I would not advise it - Without `Professional Installation` and the provision of `Back Up` Protection - IF the Installation requires it.

I am assuming that We are advising a DIY`er here regarding this `Plumbing`/ `Dainage` Advice - something that would be `Obvious` to a Plumber surveying the Basement Drainage - Which would affect `Whether`/ How the Work should be done - would NOT be `Obvious` to a `DIY`er` - I am NOT trying to `Insult` the `Do It Yourself` Plumbing `Skills` of the Questioner.

There is quite a difference from finding out that your Drains have `Backed Up` by seeing a Ground Floor W.C. Pan full of water - AND - going down to the Basement to find `Gallons of Sewage` all over the Floor ! ! - where the Washing Machine connection was the `Weak Link` !!

I would NOT be stating to a Customer that they `Could Not` have a Washing Machine Installed within a Basement here in the U.K. - BUT - I would ENSURE that the Waste Water Drainage from the Machine would NOT be capable of `Allowing` Sewage/Water from a `Back Flow` situation into the Basement/Home.

This would be achieved by EITHER Pumping the Waste Water HIGHER Up into a Connection to the `Soil Stack` - OR - IF the ONLY way was to alter the Drainage - I would Install `Back Flow` Prevention which would have to be Installed `Downstream` of the Washing Machine Connection to the Drainage. IF the Drains `Backed Up` - because there would be a `Blockage` the Washing Machine NOT being able to be used would be a `Better` `Trade Off` than risking the Drains `Backing Up` and some Sewage entering the Basement - VIA a `Retrofitted` Connection for a Washing Machine !!



THIS IS DEFINITELY NOT A `DO IT YOURSELF` `PLUMBING JOB` ! !


I AWAIT THE `RIDICULE` AND `VEILED REBUKES` !


Hopefully - The Questioner will `Weigh Up` the `Risk` of Drainage Blockage and Sewage `Back Up` - And then decide what He wants to do - I am SURE that my U.S. Colleagues WILL inform Him `How` to Install what He is suggesting - and to `Ignore` My `Ridiculous Comments` !


I `Dedicate` this `Post` to my `Wall of Text` `Admirer`.



CHRISM.

 

[CHRISM]

I am REALLY Surprised that there have not been any replies to my Post.

That of course is preferable to having what I wrote `decried` - I believe that my `Post` contained sensible Information - I wish I knew if the `Questioner` had read what I wrote - it was Lot of Typing to just be `Ignored` ! - Especially as I am NOT a `Natural Typist` - My two finger typing of these `Wall of Text` Posts takes much longer than a `Good` Typist would take.

I am `Happy` to write these `Detailed` Posts - But not IF the `Detail` is Stopping People from reading them - I have had comments related to that before on this Forum.

There will be those who would be `Delighted` to think that I went to that `Effort` - and my Post was not even read by the `Questioner`!

If the `Questioner` HAS read my Post - and happens to come back to it - could You please just let Me know with a brief reply -


"Thanks",


CHRISM.

 

[havasu]

Chrism,

He was on here on 04/06/11, but didn't comment or reply to your post.

 

[lordofthepipes]

i think you scared him off chris.

 

[Caduceus]

For future visitors to this post, I will reply.
Sure, you can install, or have installed by a professional, a pit with a pump or even an above ground receiving pit. I would recommend a pro installation since you will have to cut the existing cast iron drain and the piping arrangement will need a little know-how to get it done right. Proper placement of the back-water valve and is also important.
The vent that you need will be primarily for venting the odor from the inside of the pit, but will also provide the atmospheric balance for the p-trap because the vent will be above the water line of the pit.
There are a variety of code approved "sewage lifting" and ejecting systems available on the market today. With the potential volume and type of water, I would use an effluent pump in case lint and dirt are discharged. Zoeller has some reputable and reliable pumps and I'm sure that lifting the water 6-8 feet should not be much of an issue. Most pumps come with a chart on the box that shows the volume that can be ejected relating to the elevation just in case you need the info.
If you don't have any floor drains in your basement and you have a hot water tank, boiler, newly installed washing machine, etc., this may be a good opportunity to discuss with a plumber what it would take to have at least one floor drain installed along with a pit for the washing machine.
I've done it many times for homeowners who have elevated/hung building drains and experienced the negative side to not having flood relief in their basement.
Like I said, this is a job for a professional IMO. Good luck.

 

[Caduceus]

ChrisM, I don't think that the cautious approach that you are exhibiting is a reason for ridicule or veiled rebukes. I believe that if you were to see how this type of plumbing system is actually installed....properly, then your mind would be put to ease and you could adapt the installation to agree with your local plumbing codes. If you would come across a similar situation you would also have another service that you could provide to a customer.

 

[hossett]

Hi All:
sorry for taking so long to get back to you, (at college, out of town, home on some weekends)
anyhow thank you for all you comments and I will pass them along to my future husband and see what he can all do or not do and will take it from there. May have to re question it and or add a drawing but we will see as time moves on . (Still have 6 more weeks of school and then I can really focus on getting this done).
But once again thank you for your time and knowledge. Hossett

 

[Mr_David]

I am REALLY Surprised that there have not been any replies to my Post.

Hi CHRISM.
I get that occasionally. I call them the hit and run posters.
I've even spent some time locating and posting a picture or two and I never knew if I helped or not.
I googled a question once and found that it had been posted on several other forums.
One of the other forums had several replies but they turned out to be not as helpful as my reply.
It is kind of disappointing when you spend your time to answer a question or two and not even a thank you.

That's probably why some of our replies are brief and not as detailed and informative as yours.
If they do come back with more questions and concerns then one can elaborate.

You personally enjoy writing and like to elaborate on the details.
But in my opinion to much detail makes what your trying to convey, confusing


It is a forum where people come looking for free advice.

We had a previous poster with a similar problem but he already had a washer in his basement and it discharged into a p-trap that was sticking out of the side of the horizontal main that was just below the floor above. Not a good idea. I think they had a problem with it flooding the basement.
I think it was suggested that they install a sump system with a check valve to properly discharge the waste water from the clothes washer.

David

 

[CHRISM]

"Hello Everyone",

I was trying to show with the `Detail` that what was being asked was in MY Opinion not a DIY Plumbing Job - Whilst also offering Information on HOW the Washing Machine Waste Water COULD be `Safely` Pumped into the `Soil Pipe` / Drainage System - AND - Explain why NO `Venting` of the Washing Machine Waste Pipe would be required - Before people came on and stated that I was talking `Rubbish` and `What about the Venting`.

What I described would be a situation that I believe is `Unusual` in U.S. Plumbing - Waste Water Pipework which does NOT require a `Vent Pipe`[?].

I mentioned that the `Danger` of connecting the Washing Machine Waste Pipe into the existing Drainage Run would be heightened because the `Poster` stated that they did not have any `Sump Pump` protection for the Basement -
BUT I did not enter into explaining that this would be a `Good Idea` to have installed - As I was sure that what I mentioned about `Having Gallons of Sewage` in the Basement would be `Hint` enough.

I thought that I had written enough - I did NOT `forget` that they would be sensible to have a `Sump Pump`installed - Although with `well installed` Cast Iron Drainage there is MUCH LESS `Danger of the Basement being Flooded from the Drain Run - UNLESS someone connects the Washing Machine Waste to it !! And if the Basement is NOT exhibiting Water Penetration - Perhaps they do not need a `Sump Pump` - ??

Obviously another consideration is - Could the Basement be Flooded from above - Could a `Back Up` of the Drains flow out of a Ground Floor W.C.Pan and then Flood the Basement ?? - Does the Homeowner want to pay out to have a Sump Pump Installation put in - on the `Chance` of that happening ?? - Or in case the Hot Water Tank `Leaks` badly ??

I mention some things on here before someone else `Posts` them - and makes it look like I am `Unaware` of such.

"Thanks Havasu" - for the Info.


"Hello Plumb Crazy", I am not sure what You meant about `if I were to see how this type of Installation were installed correctly` - Or Words to that effect ?? - I was answering a Post which was asking how to `Plumb In` a Washing Machine Waste to the Cast Iron Drainage Run in the Basement - I am A Building Services Engineer - What was it that You thought that I did not understand ??

I did not write about a `Sump Pump` Installation in my Original `Post` - So it cannot be that [?]

I am NOT being `awkward` here - I really don`t know what You mean.


Mr David - I take your points about my very detailed Posts - The Problem is as I see it - If I just give a brief answer - I WILL receive replies that WILL mention information that I should have put in my Post - This will either imply that `I obviously don`t know what I am Talking about` - Or that `IF I was any kind of expert` - `I should have mentioned that` - OR - More Importantly someone will misunderstand and go and do something wrong.

`Doing something Wrong` - In Plumbing / Drainage can as You will know cause serious Problems / Damage / Dangerous Situations.

I have seen on other Forums where there are for example 10 Posts - Replies and Questions where if the Answer which was given by an `Experienced Person` had been more `Detailed` most of the replies with further Questions would not have been necessary.

This `Back and Forth` might be an `Ideal` situation if one looks at it in terms of `That is what a Forum is all about` - But NOT for the Questioner who is either trying to find out how to do something - OR - Find out if it is `within their capabilities`.

I would NEVER try to be the ONLY person to answer any `Post` - I am actually `Disappointed` when I do not see other people `Post` answers.

I have read replies which `seem` to be directed at Me / My Post and I cannot see the relevance to what I `Posted` - I then look to make sure that the reply is not directed at another `Post` - when i notice that it is not - I wonder what the person is `Replying To` ??

I have seen statements where the `Poster` has obviously either NOT Understood what I have stated - Or `Misunderstood` it - I can tell from what is written.

But THAT is `All part of a Forum` - Plenty of `Misunderstandings` !!

Your comment that `I like to write` - or words to that effect - I am NOT a `Quick` Typist - I type with Two Fingers - I was Never `Taught` to Type - When I Type these LONG `Posts` - It is a `Chore` - Not particularly `Enjoyable` - I do it - [NOT very often] - because I would like to think that I might be `Helping` someone with my Information - Something that I have `Doubted` for some time on here.



"Regards to Everyone",


CHRISM

 

[Caduceus]

CHRISM, Please don't take these comments as a direct attack on your capabilities or intelligence. When you posted " I would NOT want [In My Home] ANY Possibility of this `New Connection` being the `Weak Link` in the event of the Drainage `Backing Up` into the House." it simply appeared in your post that you were condemning the remedy and overall installation. If you were in fact replying to the original post that it could be done then I suppose that I missed it in the text. My misunderstanding. In my experience with forums it is typical to start a response with affirmation that a task could be completed or not and include some information. If the home owner is interested they will respond and cue another response from the forum. I acknowledge that you stated it was not a DIY project and agree.
A few other statements also gave me the impression that you may not be familiar with this type of installation and you were pointing to the cons with more enthusiasm than the pros. Again , my misunderstanding.
I have done these types of projects many times and even redesigned a few that were done incorrect and without venting causing just as many problems as it solved. My goal was to help with a solution.
I apologize for any offense.

Regards, SWM

 

[CHRISM]

"Hello Plumb-Crazy" - I did not take any offence to your Post - I ONLY mentioned that I am A Building Services Engineer because I thought that You probably had `Not Noticed` this - Who reads the `Side Panel` regarding `Job Title` ?


The Waste Water Pump that I described in my Original `Post` is the type that is `housed` in a Small Box - which is not much larger than a W.C. Cistern - It is not a `Sewage Lifting Pump` Installation - The kind of Product that I had in mind is a `Saniflo` Product - `Waste Water Pump` - Pumps the Waste Water away using `Small Bore` Pipework - Capable of Pumping `Upwards` and Long Distances Horizontally [with a `Fall` included].

I was assuming that someone would explain how the Questioner could `connect to` the Drainage System - using a `Saddle`Fitting of some sort - THIS was the `Weak Link` TYPE of connection that I was stating that I would NOT want in My own Home - While I had `Pre-empted` the suggestion of something like that - This was why I stated that the Alteration of the Basement Drainage should ONLY be contemplated as a `Professional` Job,
Which would take into consideration `Back Flow Protection` etc.

I take Your point about writing first about whether the `Project` CAN be achieved - before stating the `Negatives` - BUT - In this `case` the ONLY `Easy`/`Inexpensive` Ways to achieve connecting the Washing Machine Waste from the Machines location in the Basement - Would be - The Way that I described OR a `Weak Link` [On the Basement Drainage] of a `Connection` to the Existing Drainage Run which was NOT a `Professional` Installation. `Professional Installation` meaning - Cutting Into the Cast Iron Drainage - Adding `Back Flow Prevention` and Creating some form of `Stub Stack` arrangement to connect the Washing Machine Waste into - This WOULD require some kind of `Venting Arrangement` - And I would `hate` to think of the `Cost` to the Homeowner.

The Installation that I think You mentioned regarding a `Sewage Lifting Pump` and also incorporating Basement Drainage would obviously be a very good Installation - But again - What would be the Cost of such `Works` ??

We are trying to Answer a Question about `How can I connect my Washing Machine Waste to the Basement Drainage` ?? - ANY `DIY` Job - Or ANY `Tee In` connection to the Basement Cast Iron Drainage Run [Trapped] would be the `Weak Link` that I wrote about - I was never stating that a `Professional Installation` would be a `Weak Link`.

Please don`t take this the `Wrong Way` - I am stating this for `Other` users of the Forum - A `Professional Installation` in this case is NOT necessarily one carried out by your `Local Plumber` - I mean a `Professionally Designed` Installation that receives the `Approval` of the Local Authority Drainage Inspector / Local Authority Building Surveyor - And is Installed correctly - Tested and `Passed` with the necessary Certificates of `Compliance` with the Codes.

Thank You for responding to my `Post` - I really did NOT know what you were referring to when I asked - I appreciate the comments of a `Fellow Professional Plumber` - I was a Plumber for `many Years` of my `Working Life` - running my own Plumbing - Heating & Gas Business for over 30 Years now.

I look forward to reading Your advice to People on here.


"Regards",


CHRISM