root removal with copper sulfate

[Doug Lassiter]

Agreed that copper pipe wouldn't do anything. Copper doesn't dissolve in plain water. But yes, it is the copper in copper sulfate that does the killing. Acidic soil may, however, dissolve some copper, which might be why your plants were affected. As it happens, my tap water is highly alkaline, so no joy there.

If the cystals are dissolved, yes, MOST OF IT will flow past the roots, but SOME OF IT will hit the roots. Absolutely. If undissolved, most of the crystals will flow past the roots and, unless there is a pretty thick root mass (e.g. like steel wool), I'm suspecting that rather little will stick to the roots. One root and one crystal don't attract each other. Undissolved crystals is a good strategy for a mass of roots, but I guess I'd like to kill the roots before they form a semi-permeable mass.

That's fair about putting it in the bowl instead of the tank, in that the crystals take a while to dissolve, and it's easy to imagine they could get stuck under the flapper as "debris" that will cause leaks. It's true that copper sulfate can corrode ferric materials, though most of the stuff in modern toilets is plastic.

But I think we're converging on a "recipe" for root prevention under toilets. Thanks!

 

[Twowaxhack]

Put a blow up test ball in your outside cleanout on the upstream side. This will effectively seal your sewer.

Mix up your chemical in the bathtub……then let it go down the drain. Do that many times……

This will fill your house drain full of copper sulfate solution. Saturating everything……

Now that would kill roots……..

 

[Bird Doo Head]

From Hukre: Sale and use of copper sulfate is outlawed in several California counties.
It's interesting how many different locales have different rules & regulations.

I know this is a plumbing forum, but we sidetracked a bit & I am super guilty. Please accept my apologies for ranting like an old guy. After all, we have to save the planet for the next generations.

I understand the intention of California's air laws, being against mountains and having sea winds trapping pollutants. But for every rule, there's work-around. Someone I knew in California restored cars. She liked hand-rubbed lacquer, but could not buy it where she lived. So she'd order on line & have it shipped to a UPS Store in a state where it's allowed. The store would re-ship to her.

Michigan has 4 of the 5 Great Lakes on its borders, but water protection is by no means a sincere priority in Michigan. (Lots of Vote For Me talk, but no good , solid rules exist.)
We have a very old oil pipeline running under a strait where Lakes Michigan & Huron meet. If there's one leak, two lakes & countless rivers upon which people & animals from many states and provinces rely for water, are damaged. Oddly, the oil is from Ontario & for Ontario, yet the pipe is in Michigan- and owned by a giant oil company.

Here in the "Great Lakes State" I can go into any hardware or grocery store & buy phosphate cleaners & detergent additives. No rules, No Limits. I have done contract work for Detroit's sewage/storm treatment plant and asked an engineer how hard it is to get rid of phosphates in the waste water. He said it can't be done & that there is a lot present. Yikes! They do get metals, including copper sulfate and quaternary ammonium out of the water or I wouldn't use either in our DWV. Outside use is very limited at my house.

I work occasionally at an auto plant that has a famously polluted river called Rouge River running through it. That's where the iron ore & coal ships dock to unload for the plant. At sunrise, one can often see a purple glow to the river & look at the coating of sparkly things that look like glitter floating on top. (The molten steel train runs parallel to a road in the plant. The glitter flies off of the train cars, landing on the ground & the road. A street washing truck washes it into storm drains- which go to the river.)

I laughed once at the grocery store where I saw a box marked "Rouge River Corn". The cashier laughed her head off when she noticed it in my cart. Nobody around here would eat anything grown near that river. (Rouge River farms is actually in Florida. That's one bad marketing job, to be sure.)

At my house, one of my dogs dug up a free flowing artesian well. I had the water tested, hoping to use it for air conditioning & garden watering. It was loaded with gasoline, oil & heavy metals. So much for that plan. How much of that is in the nearby rivers?

I'll gladly pay more for items if it honestly means protecting the lakes, rivers, air and its inhabitants.
Perhaps it is time for continent wide regulations. That probably won't happen in my lifetime, but soon thereafter I hope.

 

[Bird Doo Head]

I can assure you that copper pipe scraps are not going to stop roots.

I have first hand knowledge that will not work.

I’ve had roots grow into the bottoms of my scrap copper buckets……

That's amazing that roots grew in the bucket. I wonder if copper tubing is coated. Maybe the roots have to touch the tubing since it doesn't leach much in plain water. Or, the roots are the same ones in the movie The Plant That Devoured Cleveland.
Copper is a good nutrient for plants in small amounts. Perhaps only a little leached out to the roots?

Non-Scientific Science Project:
For fun (I must have been bored), I put some type L tubing scraps in a bucket of water. In another bucket, I sanded & rinsed some tubing. In each, I put pulled-up plants, roots in the water, leaves out. It'll be interesting to see it either kills the roots. (Really bored...)

When I drive copper Type M tubing scraps in the ground next to a plant, the plant dies. I nuked out some giant grape vines that way. Same death thing happens with a scrap of THHN wire.

 

[Bird Doo Head]

Now, the idea of crystals clinging to root hairs doesn't sound right, unless the clog is nearly total. You flush crystals down the drain, and most of the crystals will speed right past the roots.

It's your house, so I think your best plan is to try what you feel is best.
If it works, great. If not, all you have lost is another snaking job.
Let us know how it worked out. (Hopefully well!)
Paul

 

[Doug Lassiter]

The recommendations about clearing roots out of my sewer pipes in general do not pertain here. My problem is a mass of roots right below the floor under the toilet. If I run copper sulfate down a bathtub drain it won't do anything for my problem.

As I said, metallic copper won't hurt plants UNLESS in acidic solution. Then some of the copper can dissolve and affect plants. So if your water is acidic, metallic copper might not be good for plants. If your water is alkaline, plants and metallic copper should coexist handily.

I should say that in my old toilets, snaking is really hard to do. The snake won't bend around the toilet drain. Root removal is about removing the toilet, reaching down, and pulling up the whole mass of roots. Not fun. If snaking worked, I might not bother with copper sulfate and just snake it once in a while.

 

[Twowaxhack]

The recommendations about clearing roots out of my sewer pipes in general do not pertain here. My problem is a mass of roots right below the floor under the toilet. If I run copper sulfate down a bathtub drain it won't do anything for my problem.

As I said, metallic copper won't hurt plants UNLESS in acidic solution. Then some of the copper can dissolve and affect plants. So if your water is acidic, metallic copper might not be good for plants. If your water is alkaline, plants and metallic copper should coexist handily.

I should say that in my old toilets, snaking is really hard to do. The snake won't bend around the toilet drain. Root removal is about removing the toilet, reaching down, and pulling up the whole mass of roots. Not fun. If snaking worked, I might not bother with copper sulfate and just snake it once in a while.

Sounds like you know a lot. Please come back and tell us how to stop these roots when you find out, it would help me out a lot at work since I do this type stuff everyday.

 

[Twowaxhack]

The recommendations about clearing roots out of my sewer pipes in general do not pertain here. My problem is a mass of roots right below the floor under the toilet. If I run copper sulfate down a bathtub drain it won't do anything for my problem.

If you seal your sewer with a blow up test ball and filled your lines up with copper sulfate solution through the bathtub it would saturate your entire drainage system, including the roots under the toilet and the roots you have that you don’t know about…..

The pipes would be full, all of the drainage under the slab out to the test plug.

 

[Twowaxhack]

That's amazing that roots grew in the bucket. I wonder if copper tubing is coated. Maybe the roots have to touch the tubing since it doesn't leach much in plain water. Or, the roots are the same ones in the movie The Plant That Devoured Cleveland.
Copper is a good nutrient for plants in small amounts. Perhaps only a little leached out to the roots?

Non-Scientific Science Project:
For fun (I must have been bored), I put some type L tubing scraps in a bucket of water. In another bucket, I sanded & rinsed some tubing. In each, I put pulled-up plants, roots in the water, leaves out. It'll be interesting to see it either kills the roots. (Really bored...)

When I drive copper Type M tubing scraps in the ground next to a plant, the plant dies. I nuked out some giant grape vines that way. Same death thing happens with a scrap of THHN wire.

I repair 3/4” copper water mains due to roots breaking them on a fairly regular basis.

I’ve found copper pipe that was inside the root as the root grew around the pipe. Just like a tree growing around a metal fence post.

 

[Doug Lassiter]

So I fill my drainage system with copper sulfated water, such that it kills roots directly under the toilet? Now, that would need to back up the drain to the floor level under the toilet, which is a terrific recipe for leaks all over the floor. The advantage of flushing the copper sulfate down the toilet is that is actually flushes, and you don't end up with a small lake at floor level.

 

[Bird Doo Head]

From Doug Lassiter: "The recommendations about clearing roots out of my sewer pipes in general do not pertain here. My problem is a mass of roots right below the floor under the toilet. If I run copper sulfate down a bathtub drain it won't do anything for my problem."

From a chemical standpoint, I'd surely do what TwoWaxHack said in Posts #22 & #28. TwoWaxHack is a professional, thus knows far more than you and I about what works in the field.

For faster results, get rid of the existing large roots & wait for some hairs to arrive. The hairs will draw in the copper sulfate faster than the large roots, thus providing a faster delivery to the "mother root".
Retreat before large roots grow again.

I'd suggest to make a saturated solution (no more crystals will dissolve) and add more crystals so that you have the best of both modalities.

Paul
PS: I tried a science project with your post from #22, TwoWax Hack.

Due to "Girl Soaps", our DWV gets reduced in internal diameter from the buildup of "Soft Skin Magic" chemicals, war paint & such- thus resulting in the usual brown jelly type stuff in the traps & pipes.

In the past, I'd put enzymes in each bath sinks & tub drain, one at time, when they got slow. It works very well.
Until I read Post #22...

I have test balls to fit 2 & 3", so I was able to do your plan to one branch at a time at the base of each stack, but with enzymes instead of copper sulfate. The enzyme & warm water solution was left for a 15 minute dwell. Holy Smokes- What a time & effort saver your plan is! Thanks for posting it.
Paul

 

[wpns]

As I said, metallic copper won't hurt plants UNLESS in acidic solution.

Outdoor plants probably are effected because rainwater is acidic.

 

[pasadena_commut]

Roebic makes "Foaming root killer", which is designed both to fill the whole pipe and to hang around for a while to soak into the roots. It is available in California, so presumably everywhere.

We finally solved our root issues by removing the problem trees. Not a single root related clog since then, and it has been, I'm not sure exactly, but at least 10 years. Before that it was every 6 months or so, no matter what we did, root killer or no.

 

[Bird Doo Head]

Outdoor plants probably are effected because rainwater is acidic.

Acid Rain in Detroit, home of 8 zillion factories? No Way! (Just kidding, of course)

 

[Doug Lassiter]

Outdoor plants probably are effected because rainwater is acidic.

My soil pH is 7.9. Seriously alkaline. Rainwater is only mildly acidic, and won't make the soil acidic. El basic soil chemistry. Boy, I wish it were that easy to acidify my soil. Blueberries, here I come!

Yeah, gotta take the word of a professional, who is working hard to sell his services. I know fluid mechanics, and stopping up my sewer line is not a sensible way to wash roots one foot under the toilet floor with copper sulfate. There are no roots anywhere else in my line. So filling my line with copper sulfate just increases the cost.

That's a good idea to make a saturated solution, but if you dump that stuff in the toilet, and then flush, it will get highly diluted. Might be wise to manually sweep the saturated solution in the bowl into the toilet drain. That's what I'm doing, but not really with a saturated solution.

The tree that needs to be removed is a hundred plus year old oak, and it is protected by the city. Not gonna happen.

 

[Bird Doo Head]

From Doug Lassiter:
"...and stopping up my sewer line is not a sensible way to wash roots one foot under the toilet floor with copper sulfate."
A test balloon plug in the clean-out downstream from the toilet, which hopefully there is one of, will let you fill only that branch.
it's got to be easier than pulling the toilet.

"That's a good idea to make a saturated solution,..."
I'd go with crystals only in the drains. Not pre-mixed. It has worked for me for years. We want the crystals to get stuck in the root mass.


This Really Belongs In A Garden Forum, But Since We're Already Here:
The tree that needs to be removed is a hundred plus year old oak, and it is protected by the city. Not gonna happen.

I'm glad you are saving the tree. Insects, birds, squirrels & more rely upon trees, as do pollinators. Think of the tons of global warming carbon that the tree has consumed over its life- at probbly about 48 pounds per year.

Trees & plants are made of nothing but air & water, plus trace minerals. They don't eat dirt. Every piece of lumber that you pick up is made from the carbon & water that the tree "ate". (Jan Ingenhousz publicized this in 1783, although it was discovered some years earlier by someone whose name I've forgotten. There's a good interview with Richard Feynman about this tpoic from 2012.)

"Boy, I wish it were that easy to acidify my soil."
As does acid, alkalinity will also cause copper ions to free themselves from the copper, so the copper will still leach in your alkaline soil.

For a fun experiment, shove a piece of bare copper wire into the ground next to the stem of a weed plant. Wait a few days & you'll see that the weed has died or is dying. (The soil will have to get wet at some point.) That will tell you that copper ions are leaching. For a large plant, skewer the stem with the wire. It'll kill it quickly.

My soil is also alkaline, per my sad tomatoes & peppers, yet wire at a weed (or grape vine in my case) plant still kills it. Copper wire shoved below the dirt in concrete expansion cracks also stops weeds & grass from growing. Forever.


My parents once owned a house with 7.85 pH well water- slightly alkaline. Copper tubing was constantly being eaten from the inside out. When PEX was approved, I did the dance of joy!

Proof of alkaline substances eating copper is concrete- which is usually around 7.6 pH when cured (12.5 when freshly mixed). It often destroys slab-encased copper hydronic tubing. We've found long lengths of copper that simply disappeared, leaving a concrete "tube" behind.

Concrete's alkalinity will also destroy steel, as per the many rotted j-bolts, rebar sections & mesh that I've encountered. Not to mention the miles of concrete encased rigid conduit that I've replaced. A chemist explained that the alkalinity accelerates oxidation of the iron in the steel by freeing the iron from the steel alloy.

Proof that Alkaline is also good at baseball is to check Al Kaline's stats. (Sorry, couldn't resist)

 

[Doug Lassiter]

I only have one cleanout for the whole house. So if I plug that up, it'll back up everywhere.

Again, the trouble with crystals is that you need a root mass to trap them. I want to get rid of the roots BEFORE an impermeable mass happens. Before such a mass happens, crystals will just fly past the root threads. Copper in solution will actually wet those root threads. But yes, if you've already got a clog, crystals should help.

I think that's true about copper corrosion in alkaline liquid, but it works differently. In acid, copper is released as Cu+ ions, which kill the roots directly. In akaline mix, copper will form CuO2, which I don't think will kill anything. But yes, in both cases metallic copper will disappear. I'm pretty sure it disappears faster in acidic solutions, however.

 

[Doug Lassiter]

Hello Doug & Others!

Copper sulfate works great if done properly.
We had a root problem from either one neighbor's elm tree (likely) or the other neighbor's maple trees galore. (Unlikely- Maple roots grow shallow.) We're on clay, so the trees must search for water. Sewers are a good source.

Our sewer would clog, so I'd have to snake it every 3 - 4 weeks in summer & winter and once in fall & spring. Each time, lots roots came back on the cutter.

First Treatment:
I started by snaking three passes- until no ore roots returned on the cutter. Then I waited one week for root hairs to arrive in the pipe.
Next, I put two tablespoons of 97% pure copper sulfate crystals in a workshop sink filled with about 3 gallons of water. I let the water drain as quickly as possible by removing the stopper. (A washing machine stand pipe is a good candidate for a fast drain.) We want the crystals to wash down quickly with about 3 gallons of water so that they are suspended and will cling to the root hairs.

Results:
I repeat the two tablespoons treatment every 6 - 8 weeks and I have not snaked in several years. The trees are healthy and brilliant.

Hints:
A) Snake first, then wait about a week for hairs to return to the pipe. Copper sulfate won't eat the big roots, it simply clings to the root hairs, shrivels them & makes them die back away from the pipes so they fall off, to be washed away.
When I was young and worked for a plumbing company, we'd do replacements and find that the roots were dead 8 or 10 feet from the pipe.

B) You don't need a lot of crystals. Commercial root-killo products are either diluted crystals or they are are simply up-selling. It can be hard on this earth, so use as little as possible.

C) Do this treatment when water won't be used for several hours. Evening before everyone retires for the day is a good time, as is morning when everyone leaves for the day. It won't harm the pipes. (Actually, any galvanized or cast iron pipe will eventually develp a copper coating inside.)

D) Keep the extra crystals dry or they will absorb moisture from the air & clump up. Put them in a zip-to-close bag and put the bag in a tightly sealed jar or paint can.

A Good Copper Sulfate Source:
Mindy Materials sells copper sulfate crystals that are 99 or more percent pure. They are far less expensive than the 40% crystals I saw in a home/hardware store. When last I bought, it was about $15.00 for 5 lbs (more than a lifetime supply for root killing). There are many other laboratory supply houses that also sell it & may be even cheaper.

Why We Did Not (Yet) Fix This:
Our building drain & sewer are clay tile and are under the driveway; therefore replacing or lining the clay pipes is something that will wait until it must be done- most likely when the pipe shifts or the snake hangs up.
Moving it is equally challenging, as there would be counters & machine tools to move, plus 20 feet of basement to saw-cut. Once outside, there is a concrete porch 4 feet tall & 8 feet wide to go under.

What To Do With All The Extra Copper Sulfate:
Although it should be used with discretion due to its potential to damage the ground water and fish killing ability, copper sulfate has many more uses. Keep it away from bird baths. It will kill the beneficial, pollinating insects that drink there.

Mix some in water until it is a saturated solution. Squirt it in pavement joints & cracks on a dry day. Nothing will grow there for years.

Mixed properly, it is a good nutrient for vegetable & flower plants. It'll also kill insects that eat the leaves. But be SURE to mix properly. It also kills plants if it's too concentrated.

Mix a saturated solution (Saturated Solution = No more will dissolve). Spray it on wood. The wood will not rot and will not grow fungus.

On the roof, it will kill algae & moss. On pavers, too. (But it can stain the light colored concrete & clay products blue.) My neighbor's maple trees are huge & shade two of my roofs. Algae & moss were eating my shingles. I shot them with copper sulfate. In a few days, the growth was dead & I gently swept it off. Next, I put a strip of bare copper wire on the roof, from gable to gable, just under the ridge shingles. No more moss or algae has grown for many years.

Squirt a very little around the root zone of impossible to kill plants, such as poison ivy and evil grape vines. They'll die. But, nothing will grow there for years. (Shoving a piece of copper wire in the dirt at the plant's stem will do the same thing.)
I killed grape vines that kept returning- even after digging up the roots. (Grapes are very, very toxic to dogs, so the vines had to go.)


For Fun:
In a jar mix copper sulfate crystals in hot water to become a saturated solution. (Saturated Solution = No more will dissolve).

Hook a wire to the positive terminal of a 9 volt battery and to a piece of clean, un-coated metal, like a screw or nail. (Flat strip works well, too) Put that metal in the water.

Clean a quarter thoroughly, removing all oils.

Hook a wire to the negative battery terminal. Hook the negative wire to the quarter with an alligator clip. Stick that in the jar as far from the other metal as possible. Try to keep the alligator clip out of the water.

In a half-hour or so, the quarter will be copper plated & dull. Shine it up & it'll look brilliant.
My truck key & car key look the same. I did this to the truck key. No no more grabbing the wrong key.

I hope your root killing goes well and you can stay clog-free until you can replace or line the piping.

Paul

Hello Doug & Others!

Copper sulfate works great if done properly.
We had a root problem from either one neighbor's elm tree (likely) or the other neighbor's maple trees galore. (Unlikely- Maple roots grow shallow.) We're on clay, so the trees must search for water. Sewers are a good source.

Our sewer would clog, so I'd have to snake it every 3 - 4 weeks in summer & winter and once in fall & spring. Each time, lots roots came back on the cutter.

First Treatment:
I started by snaking three passes- until no ore roots returned on the cutter. Then I waited one week for root hairs to arrive in the pipe.
Next, I put two tablespoons of 97% pure copper sulfate crystals in a workshop sink filled with about 3 gallons of water. I let the water drain as quickly as possible by removing the stopper. (A washing machine stand pipe is a good candidate for a fast drain.) We want the crystals to wash down quickly with about 3 gallons of water so that they are suspended and will cling to the root hairs.

Results:
I repeat the two tablespoons treatment every 6 - 8 weeks and I have not snaked in several years. The trees are healthy and brilliant.

Hints:
A) Snake first, then wait about a week for hairs to return to the pipe. Copper sulfate won't eat the big roots, it simply clings to the root hairs, shrivels them & makes them die back away from the pipes so they fall off, to be washed away.
When I was young and worked for a plumbing company, we'd do replacements and find that the roots were dead 8 or 10 feet from the pipe.

B) You don't need a lot of crystals. Commercial root-killo products are either diluted crystals or they are are simply up-selling. It can be hard on this earth, so use as little as possible.

C) Do this treatment when water won't be used for several hours. Evening before everyone retires for the day is a good time, as is morning when everyone leaves for the day. It won't harm the pipes. (Actually, any galvanized or cast iron pipe will eventually develp a copper coating inside.)

D) Keep the extra crystals dry or they will absorb moisture from the air & clump up. Put them in a zip-to-close bag and put the bag in a tightly sealed jar or paint can.

A Good Copper Sulfate Source:
Mindy Materials sells copper sulfate crystals that are 99 or more percent pure. They are far less expensive than the 40% crystals I saw in a home/hardware store. When last I bought, it was about $15.00 for 5 lbs (more than a lifetime supply for root killing). There are many other laboratory supply houses that also sell it & may be even cheaper.

Why We Did Not (Yet) Fix This:
Our building drain & sewer are clay tile and are under the driveway; therefore replacing or lining the clay pipes is something that will wait until it must be done- most likely when the pipe shifts or the snake hangs up.
Moving it is equally challenging, as there would be counters & machine tools to move, plus 20 feet of basement to saw-cut. Once outside, there is a concrete porch 4 feet tall & 8 feet wide to go under.

What To Do With All The Extra Copper Sulfate:
Although it should be used with discretion due to its potential to damage the ground water and fish killing ability, copper sulfate has many more uses. Keep it away from bird baths. It will kill the beneficial, pollinating insects that drink there.

Mix some in water until it is a saturated solution. Squirt it in pavement joints & cracks on a dry day. Nothing will grow there for years.

Mixed properly, it is a good nutrient for vegetable & flower plants. It'll also kill insects that eat the leaves. But be SURE to mix properly. It also kills plants if it's too concentrated.

Mix a saturated solution (Saturated Solution = No more will dissolve). Spray it on wood. The wood will not rot and will not grow fungus.

On the roof, it will kill algae & moss. On pavers, too. (But it can stain the light colored concrete & clay products blue.) My neighbor's maple trees are huge & shade two of my roofs. Algae & moss were eating my shingles. I shot them with copper sulfate. In a few days, the growth was dead & I gently swept it off. Next, I put a strip of bare copper wire on the roof, from gable to gable, just under the ridge shingles. No more moss or algae has grown for many years.

Squirt a very little around the root zone of impossible to kill plants, such as poison ivy and evil grape vines. They'll die. But, nothing will grow there for years. (Shoving a piece of copper wire in the dirt at the plant's stem will do the same thing.)
I killed grape vines that kept returning- even after digging up the roots. (Grapes are very, very toxic to dogs, so the vines had to go.)


For Fun:
In a jar mix copper sulfate crystals in hot water to become a saturated solution. (Saturated Solution = No more will dissolve).

Hook a wire to the positive terminal of a 9 volt battery and to a piece of clean, un-coated metal, like a screw or nail. (Flat strip works well, too) Put that metal in the water.

Clean a quarter thoroughly, removing all oils.

Hook a wire to the negative battery terminal. Hook the negative wire to the quarter with an alligator clip. Stick that in the jar as far from the other metal as possible. Try to keep the alligator clip out of the water.

In a half-hour or so, the quarter will be copper plated & dull. Shine it up & it'll look brilliant.
My truck key & car key look the same. I did this to the truck key. No no more grabbing the wrong key.

I hope your root killing goes well and you can stay clog-free until you can replace or line the piping.

Paul

It was suggested that one could get copper sulfate in bulk through Mindy Materials. Yes, they had a decent price, so I ordered some. Now, they seem to just sell on eBay, which is a bit smelly. I ordered some, and here we are, several weeks later, with no product, no answer from the company, and eBay refunding my purchase. Their online ratings are kind of pathetic. Stay away from Mindy!

 

[Doug Lassiter]

It was suggested that one could get copper sulfate in bulk through Mindy Materials. Yes, they had a decent price, so I ordered some. Now, they seem to just sell on eBay, which is a bit smelly. I ordered some, and here we are, several weeks later, with no product, no answer from the company, and eBay refunding my purchase. Their online ratings are kind of pathetic. Stay away from Mindy!

FWIW, I've found that SeedBarn has a nice deal on copper sulfate in bulk.